>> i worked in germany in that period of time. and was there in 1990 when german unification came about. and the soviet union collapsed. and nobody at that time would have imagined that nato would extend to the russian borders and possibly even into ukraine. it was just unthinkable. and nonetheless because there was no real power in russia this is what happened. and at the moment russia has recovered some of its strength and is asserting its strategic interests. i think they have to be substantive negotiations about that. i think the best status for ukraine would be similar to finland and could be part of the west that could be -- >> not certainly part of nato. >> but not part of nato. that's not going to work. and as long as that's clear and you talk to russia about it you don't need sanctions you need substantive negotiations. >> but eastern ukraine. will it secede? will putin go that one step further center nobody knows this of course. but what happens next? >> i don't think so. because i don't even think it's in putin's or rus